There is no doubt that we are living in the latter days, predicted in numerous biblical references, from both from the Old and the New Testaments. Whether it is the return of the Jewish people to the Holy Land, or the fact that the gospel has been preached in all nations, or any of many other signs pointed out in MESSIAH2030, we know that the old age has ended and a new one has arrived.

Unfortunately, we have to admit that our track record on predicting exact dates has been rather poor. Some thought His return would occur in 1000 AD. Later, others (based on the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation) understood that He should appear in 1260 AD. After that embarrassment, the Catholic Church decided not to accept any more ideas of specific dates. That caution, however, did not affect the Protestant Churches which arose in the 1500s and later.

The most famous (or infamous?) missed prediction came in 1844, in what became known as “the Great Disappointment”. There have been numerous predicted dates since then. All created a lot of excitement as the time approached; but all so far have caused a lot of disappointment among the followers and, alas, ridicule from much of the public.

So, rather than following in those footsteps, I ask myself, “Why don’t we study the successful
prophetic fulfillment to see what we can learn?” And why not start with the most famous of all of them: The Wise Men of the East, who found “the King of the Jews" at the time of His birth. What enabled them to be successful, while the Jewish people all around them failed? If interested in exploring this, reply with a note or your questions.

Hello my brother,
here is also another "revelation" from Daniel and Revelation of Jesus, regarding the timeline we never could see until the "seals" were opened in our generation.
Involving the Day/year as 1000 years principle.
I offer this for further reading, am also interested in the "wise men" discovering and following what Daniel passed down to them.
https://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
peace to all who research truth.

Hello brother Alex--
The Wise Men of the East are such a fascinating example, because, although it is possible that the Magi of Persia may have preserved the writings of Daniel for 5 centuries (from the time he wrote them while he was a part of the Jewish exile in Persia), it is remarkable that the Magi paid such significant attention to the scripture from a neighboring religion (Judaism) that they were willing to travel over 1000 miles in search of this fulfillment. This seems especially remarkable when it is contrasted to the Jewish leaders and scholars who had kept careful copies of the Book of Daniel and regarded it as a sacred Jewish text, and yet, they were unable to successfully find the promised Christ at the time of His first coming, even though He was right in their midst.

When I think back on how the Jewish people missed Him, not only at His birth but also (for most of the Jewish people) during His lifetime, I try to imagine how this could have happened. The main reason, as far as I can tell, is that their gaze was fixed on what some call “mega-miracles”. They wanted someone like Moses, who could part the Red Sea, which everyone would see all at once. They wanted someone who had super-natural powers to drive the Romans out of the Holy Land. And so they thought that there was no need to do a search for someone—least of all someone who would “only” provide spiritual truths, even though these great truths would, over the course of the next 3 centuries, topple the polytheism of the Grecco-Roman world.

Now, to be sure, Christ came with miracles. But the miracles He came with were not as obvious as the parting of the Red Sea. He was born of a virgin. While most of the Jewish people scoffed at this claim, one of the odd things we find among the Magi/Zoroastrian teachings (the Wise Men were Zoroastrians), is that they were, in fact, expecting a new Messenger from God who would be born of a virgin! For the Wise Men, this must have been a wonderful confirmation of their own beliefs, when they heard of this fact from Mary and Joseph.

Get a star program and take it back to the sky over Jerusalem in 3 BC. Look for Regulus. You will see the almost near Identical Revelation 12 woman over the skies at that time with the planet Mercury (Messenger) does 3 loops around Regulus the King Star.

The same exact sign happened in 2017 except it was Jupiter and it was the one circling Regulus. Jupiter is considered the king planet. So the king planet circles Regulus the King star 3 times like 3BC. Except this one had the crown of 12 stars on her head.

For a time after Sept 23, 2017 I thought t was just a fluke, nothing happened. But now that I look back on it, nothing has been the same since that time. The world is completely upside down and head on a fast track to Sodom and Gomorrah ever since that sign appeared. And now WW3 is staring us n the face with Apophis the Asteroid skimming our atmosphere in 2029. They aptly named it after the Egyptian God of Chaos. Egypt, always Egypt having around to this day!

The next sky sign to appear according to Revelation, is the Great Red Dragon which sweeps a 3rd of the stars from the sky and destroys a 3rd of the earth.

All that was to say I think the sign of the Woman clothes with the Sun was what the Magi were following and looking at during the Time of Christ's birth and now again in 2017.

Hi Staci: That is a fascinating interpretation. I have read many astrological / astronomical interpretations of the “star” that the Magi saw. But because there are many, no one is entirely sure which is correct. The Magi, however, were certain, or at least certain enough that they were willing to leave their homeland and their religious community and travel for over 1,000 miles to search for the One that had been promised, even in a foreign land and among a foreign religion. The Zoroastrians had expectations of a new Messenger from God. Their religion speaks of Messengers who would appear at roughly 1000 year intervals (very similar to the “days” described in Messiah 2030) for the next 3000 years. Although the exact date of Zoroaster is unknown, scholars generally believe he lived about 1000 to 1100 years before Jesus. Therefore, the Zoroastrian world was in a state of heightened religious expectation at the time that Jesus was born.

But most of the Zoroastrian magi were unwilling to consider that He might appear in a land outside of Persia, and within a religious community outside of Zoroastrianism. So only a few Magi came in search of Jesus. (We traditionally think that it may have been three, although the Bible doesn’t say so—it only mentions three gifts.) Apparently, the news of a new Messenger was not well-received when the Magi returned to Persia, since no community of their followers was ever found by later Christian missionaries or apostles traveling through Persia. It often happens that the leaders of the old religion do not welcome the news of the coming of a new Messenger. This was certainly true of the Jewish religious leaders.

What do we learn from all of this? (1) It is important to keep your eyes open for a fulfillment that may occur in ways that are different from what most people expect (2) We should consider that it could occur beyond the borders of our own country & culture, and outside of our own religious community—God is so much bigger than both (3) It is very likely a fulfillment that will be resisted by existing religious authorities, since the new Messenger often challenges their interpretation and thus their authority.

When I wonder about why the Wise Men of the East were able to succeed in finding the Christ, while the Jewish people and their religious leaders failed, one difference that strikes me is that the Magi of the Christmas story were willing to get up and really search. Although they paid attention to signs in the skies, they did not just sit back and wait for some huge miracle that everyone in their home country of Persia would see. They were willing to go so far as to travel all the way to Jerusalem and Bethlehem. They had to cross the boundary between the Persian east and the Roman west. They had to cross beyond the limits of their home religion (they were Zoroastrian) and into domain of a different religion. That strikes me as showing an extraordinary degree of detachment. But God rewarded their detachment and devotion by guiding them to the promised Messiah.

Are we, today, willing to be as detached as the Wise Men were? Undoubtedly, there were many Persians who would have asked, “Why are you travelling all the way to Jerusalem? Surely, if you expect a Promised One, He will appear here in Persia.” But they ignored the doubters. Are we willing to adopt that level of detachment today? I hope that those who are reading this will let me know about their own level of detachment in their search.

I like this website and forum because, within the context of the 1000 years = 1 day prophetic theme, its readers and administrators are willing to consider a wide variety of possibilities, instead of forcing everyone to focus on just a single one.

In the field of prophetic fulfillment there are two branches. One can be called the “mega-miraculous” branch, which understands such fulfillment as being accompanied by huge, miraculous events. The other can be thought of as the “minor-miraculous” fulfillment, in which Christ or the Messiah or the Promised One—whichever term you want to use—returns and provides spiritual guidance and teachings, and perhaps does some miracles that are witnessed by a few but which don’t leave a clear, obvious physical trace.

At the time of Jesus’ first coming, people of both types existed within the Jewish community. Most were in the mega-miraculous group. But His actual appearance was of the second type. He did not part the Red Sea. He did not lead an unconquerable army to slay the masses of Roman soldiers. The stars did not fall from the sky (even though this is predicted in the Old Testament.) The greatest miracle was His teachings and His life and willingness to die in order to demonstrate that He had power over death. These teachings and the example of His life eventually conquered the polytheistic Roman world. But it took about three centuries.

So, the question before us today is, will the predicted fulfillment be the mega-miraculous type or the minor-miraculous type? Another way of asking this question is: To what degree should the various prophecies about events be understood in literal terms, and to what extent might they be understood in symbolic or spiritual terms?

This thread/forum is an opportunity to explore the second option, in recognition that this is the way that prophecies have most often been fulfilled in the past. And, as in the days of Jesus’ first appearance, this group is much smaller than the mega-miraculous group. But, if the pattern holds, the popularity of a particular belief does not prove that it will be correct. When several of the popular predictions failed (as was the case in the decades after Jesus’ life) the people began to look back and wonder if they had missed something. Perhaps we are in that stage now.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not suggesting that some mega-disaster will not occur. One has only to read the newspapers today—whether the news about the existing conflict between Russia and Ukraine (and its NATO-based allies) or the conflict between Israel and Iran or the potential conflicts between the US & China or the US and North Korea or India & Pakistan—to realize that a mega-disaster is a significant possibility.
However, when I think back to the story of Jesus and the early Christian community, I think also of the disasters that befell the Jewish people after their rejection of Jesus. The destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD was a mega-disaster for them Although some Jews may have become Christian at this point, most did not. A second mega-disaster occurred in 135 AD, as a result of the Bar Kokhba Revolt, during which the Romans barred Jews from even living in Jerusalem, turning them into a wandering, homeless people.
But the point is, the expected Jewish Messiah did NOT appear during either of these mega-disasters, even though many Jews hoped and prayed that He would appear. Why didn’t He come? The answer (from today’s perspective) is clear: He had already appeared, and the large majority of the Jewish people had ignored Him. They were so attached to their own expectations of a mega-miraculous Messiah, that they failed to look for the true miracle—the spiritual teachings that a humble Carpenter from Nazareth had already brought.
Q: How does this affect us today? A: It alerts us to the possibility that a mega-disaster could occur without the Messiah returning from the sky. What would that mean? It would mean that, as in the 70 AD or 135 AD, the Messiah had already appeared, but we had been so focused on our particular expectations (which could be erroneous) that we had missed Him. But that is going to need a major re-interpretation of our theology. It’s a re-interpretation that may be difficult for many—as difficult as it was for the Jewish people to abandon their hopes for a Messiah who would destroy the Roman Empire and adopt instead the belief in a Carpenter whose teachings about loving ones neighbor and life after death would eventually overturn that Empire, in ways that only God could have foreseen.

As I think about it, we’ve already had two mega-disasters, in which Christian nations were fighting and slaughtering each other. Tens of millions of Christians died. These were World War I and World War II. Why didn’t Christ return to save much of Christian civilization at that time? There was even one group (the Jehovah’s Witnesses/Watch Tower Society) who had predicted both upheaval and Christ’s return in 1914. Charles Taze Russell turned out to be right about the upheaval, but not about the return.

Was WW I, then, similar to the disaster of the Jewish revolt in 70 AD? Was WW II, in some sense, similar to the Bar Kokhba Revolt of 135 AD? And, like the Jewish people of those times who were left wondering why the Messiah of their expectations had not appeared, should we now be re-calibrating our expectations and looking backwards in time for a non-mega-miraculous Messenger who appeared relatively quietly, in a manner different from what we had thought?

And if so, where and how far back should we look?

Well, let’s see...The Bar Kokhba Revolt took place about 100 years after the Jewish leaders had rejected and crucified Jesus. (Historians say it took place from 132 to 136 AD.) If WW II is the modern Bar Kokhba disaster, what was happening about 100 years prior to World War II? This would be 1839 to 1845.

Christians who have some knowledge of the history of fundamentalist Christianity will recognize this time as the period during which large groups in both America and Europe were expecting the return of Christ in what was known as the Second Great Awakening. (The first Great Awakening was primarily about people’s recognition that they had to take responsibility for their own spiritual development, rather than relying on others.) In the years leading up to 1844, William Miller was attracting huge crowds with his explanation of how Daniel’s prophecies pointed exactly to that year. Of course, Jesus did not descend from the sky, and Miller was ridiculed for causing “the Great Disappointment” (details are in Wikipedia).

But rather than rejecting the accuracy of the time calculation (which was quite clear), we are open to considering the possibility of a non-mega-miraculous appearance (like Jesus’ first coming) happening at the predicted time. In this case, something could have happened anywhere in the world, and simply not have been immediately noted or understood in the West.

But where should we look? I am tempted to think that the first place to look should be in the Holy Land. However, when I think back to the time that the disciples were asking Jesus about His return, I am reminded that He did not tell His disciples to look there. Instead, He suggested looking to the east. “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” (Matt 24:27)

East of the Holy Land was the vast Persian Empire—the only other known example of monotheism in those days—the land of Cyrus the Great, whom Isaiah has called “God’s anointed” (Isa 45:1) and who is praised by Ezra and in other Old Testament accounts. As noted above, the Wise Men of the East (from Matthew’s account of Christ’s birth), were from Persia, and had some accurate knowledge of the coming of Jesus.

More specifically, a portion of the Persian Empire where Daniel had had his visions of the “Latter Days”, was known as the land of Elam. Perhaps the land where that vision of the “2300 days” occurred, which pointed William Miller and his Christian followers to the year 1844, is the best place to start. It would meet Jesus’ criteria that the Messiah would come from the East.

And indeed, if we go back to that time and place, we find that there was someone claiming to be the Promised One, who was teaching the birth of a new message from God. He was calling to the peoples “of the East and the West”--not just his particular region--and was describing the fulfillment of a promise that was occurring because it was the end of the millennium of separation from God.

It is interesting that he is tuned in to the Magi (mentioned starting at 5:12).
My questions are: a) Would the Zoroastrian Magi pay more attention to Zoroastrian prophecies (there were plenty) or Old Testament prophecies? It seems fairly certain to me that they would have paid most attention to Zoroastrian prophecies. A statement in the 2nd century Christian "Syriac Infancy Gospel" indicates that they came "according to a prophecy of Zoroaster". (See Syriac Infancy Gospel in Wikipedia for details.)
b) If they arrived according to a prophecy of Zoroaster, doesn't that indicate that Zoroaster must have been a true prophet? Also, since he lived about 1000 years before Jesus, it fits nicely into the 1000-year timeframe of Messiah 2030.
For the Magi, the "creator God" was "Ahura Mazda" or, in English, the "Wise Lord". Was He also the God of Israel? Well, since the Zoroastrians were monotheists, as were the Jews, and since many of their teachings were in parallel, it is not hard to realize that many people of the time (including apparently Matthew) recognized that they worshiped the same God although using 2 different names.
It seems evident that the people of Qumran were not the only ones who had expectations of the coming of the Messiah at that time. Clearly, at least some of the Zoroastrians did also. Exactly which star alignment or comet drew the Magi's attention is a matter of speculation--most of the original text of the Zoroastrians has been lost in the many battles that have occurred over the centuries in that part of the world. But some items remain, including guidance by the stars and the Zoroastrian expectation of a Messenger who would be born of a virgin.
Another question I would ask is, if the Qumran community had a precise knowledge of the timing of the birth of Jesus, why didn't they travel to Bethlehem? The distance from Qumran to Bethlehem is tiny when compared to the more-than-1000 miles that the Magi had to travel.
I see prophecy as a pathway that connects many of the religions. The story of the Magi illustrates a clear connection between Christianity and Zoroastrianism.
Alas, the Roman Empire was fighting the Persian/Zoroastrian empire for a few centuries before Constantine became a Christian, and the political habit of fighting with the Persians did not dissipate even after they were both monotheistic empires. It got so bad by the late 6th/early 7th century that they almost destroyed each other. They were so weakened that a new religion, again professing monotheism, was able to arise from among the previously dis-united tribes of Arabia and spread across large swaths of the ancient world.
I have a different understanding of Rev 12--thinking of it as it as a prophetic statement rather than something looking backwards in time. But I certainly acknowledge that some prophecies have multiple legitimate interpretations.

Responding to Christopher Chalfant's reply to the first message in this forum (since the "Reply" button is no longer working):
Interesting, Christopher. But I don't think the Wise Men of the East were "magicians" even though the original name "Magi" sounds like "magician". There was a whole educated class in Persia at this time, called magi. The Zoroastrians believed that the original words of Zoroaster were too holy to be written down. The only worthy thing that could be done was to memorize them. This took a lot of training and so it could not be done for everyone. But those who received the training developed into an educated class known as "magi". Although some may have known about herbs and medicine, they were primarily known for watching the stars and the planets. Whether this made them astronomers or astrologers in that age is unclear--there was no real distinction between those two fields.

But at least some of them picked up on a prophecy of Zoroaster concerning the coming of the next Messenger of God about 1000 years after Zoroaster's time. They saw the sign in the heavens at the right time, and thus were able to find Jesus at the time of His birth.

It was a great confirmation for them, demonstrating not only the truth of Jesus but also the truth of Zoroaster. And it holds some very valuable lessons for us today, as noted elsewhere in this thread.

If there's a petition for better forum tech support or functionality, consider me signed.

To James Tyson: I guess I am just saying that it depends on how one defines sorcery and magic, but its interesting that society appears to have treated "magic" as commonplace in those days. The paradigm of today is a very left-brained, materialist, and paradoxically This generation believes the most ridiculous things as "science".

I just find this all fascinating and at the same time it informs me that "reality" is just going to keep getting "crazier".

Liked: "The paradigm of today is very left-brained, materialist". When we understand the scriptures as spiritual books about spiritual reality, whole new vistas open up, which would otherwise remain closed when we try to understand everything in materialistic, literal terms.

After doing a lot of research about the various religions and their prophetic connections, I put what I had learned into a book--in the form of a novel set in the mid-19th century--about a search for the Promised One at the time when the Millerite movement was creating widespread expectation of the imminent return of Christ. An American and an Englishman set out to do what the Wise Men of the East had done at the time of Jesus' birth: Actually travel in search of Him. Rather than waiting for Christ to descend from the sky, they are following Jesus' admonition to "seek" in order to "find". And there was a lot to discover at that time! They find that the question of the Return of Christ is only the tip of a larger iceberg--all of the past prophetic religions are expecting a "Promised One".

So, anyone interested in reading further can find it on Amazon--"The Wise Men of the West--A Search for the Promised One in the Latter Days". Or for brief articles related to the book, go to www.WiseMenoftheWest.com.